U.S. Relations with the People's Republic of China (2006)

U.S. Department of State

Interview With Bill Cunningham of the Bill Cunningham Show

Secretary Condoleezza Rice
Washington, DC
November 2, 2006

(1:30 p.m. EST)

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QUESTION: Madame Secretary, North Korea about three weeks ago seemingly tested a nuclear device or at least tried to test one. It may not have come off completely. Can we say now -- can you say as the Secretary of State here in America -- that the North Koreans have nuclear weapons?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I -- certainly we do believe that that was a nuclear test. We don't know -- it was relatively small and we don't know why, but it was a nuclear test. The North Koreans have been trying to build a nuclear program for almost 30 years, so this has been around a while. And we now have, I think the right group of states -- China, Russia, South Korea, Japan and the United States -- that can convince the North Koreans either they have to give up their nuclear weapons or they are not going to get any benefits from the international system and it's a big breakthrough to finally get sanctions on North Korea that China supported. That's a major step for China.

QUESTION: Of course, America now are the new Greeks, we're the new Romans, we're the new Egyptians, we're the dominant power in the world. But isn't it fair to say that in this case the Red Chinese probably have more influence over the North Koreans than we do because of their proximity, their oil, their refugee concerns, et cetera? Isn't it fair for us to say to the Chinese, you guys are in charge of this one, you take the ball and we're going to help you; but isn't it fair to say the Chinese have more steam than the Americans?

SECRETARY RICE: Oh, I think there's no doubt that China has probably greater leverage with the North Koreans than any other state. And that's why it's so important that we have the six-party framework. It's why it's so important that China was willing to use sanctions against North Korea. You know, you've heard people say, well, it should just be the United States talking directly with North Korea.

QUESTION: Right.

SECRETARY RICE: Well, that just doesn't take account of the point that you just made: China is the country with real leverage with the North Koreans. So we have to work with China and we've been pretty successful.

QUESTION: Now I read some where the Chinese main concern is in two areas: One is refugees. They don't a million North Koreans coming across the border. But the other thing is that the Chinese know that if the North Koreans actually get information about the world that they don't have, they're going to look more like South Korea over the next ten to 20 years instead of North Korea. And as a consequence, democracy, freedom, opportunity will overtake the entire Korean Peninsula and the Chinese do not want that because they'd rather have a buffer between freedom and them, which is North Korea. Do you buy into that?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I think at one point that was Chinese thinking. But what they don't need is a state that is dangerous on the Korean Peninsula setting off nuclear devices, testing missiles. That makes North Korea a liability on the Korean Peninsula and I think that's why you've seen the Chinese reacting the way that they've been reacting.

I do believe that if North Korea ever opens up, you are going to have a very different circumstance there because you can't possibly convince the North Korean people that they're living in paradise if they had information about the rest of the world. And so I think it will be a good thing when the North Korean people have some access to the rest of the world.

QUESTION: Madame Secretary, some experts have said that the best thing that you can do is perhaps allow South Korea or Japan to go nuclear, maybe even Taiwan. Is that in the cards?

SECRETARY RICE: No, I think it's not in the cards, because, you know, no one really knows what the implications would be, what the outcome would be of further nuclear weapons in Northeast Asia. But I can assure you, it probably wouldn't be good. It's just a security environment where if countries start choosing the nuclear path, you're going to have a lot of very insecure states. And what we've done, and what I did when I went out to Asia two weeks ago, is to remind everyone that the United States has defense commitments to defend Japan and to defend South Korea, that we will do so, that we will do so with the full range of our capabilities, and that that means that they can rely on the American security umbrella to deal with threats like the North Korean nuclear test.

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QUESTION: Now lastly, on the internet today it says here, and of course the internet's never wrong, it says, "Russia and China indicated today that they will not support a draft UN resolution imposing tough sanctions on Iran for its refusal to halt its nuclear enrichment program." Of course, I -- because of the contracts between and the contacts between Iran and Russia and China, that certainly makes sense to me. As the Secretary of State, if Russia and China does not go along are we stymied?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I think they will go along. As a matter of fact, they are pledged to -- from the last resolution we had -- that we will seek sanctions under a Security Council resolution. I think what you're seeing there is you're seeing negotiations right now. They don't like the draft, the resolution that the Europeans have put forward, and so you're seeing some negotiation but I think we'll get a resolution.

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