U.S. Relations With the People's Republic of China (2008)

U.S. Department of State

Interview With Charlie Rose

John D. Negroponte, Deputy Secretary of State
Washington, DC
April 25, 2008

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MR. ROSE: Oh go right ahead, wherever you --

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: And I think maybe just you were asking me how I see the world?

MR. ROSE: Right.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: And I see it quite hopefully and quite optimistically. For a whole variety of reasons, I think world economies are doing better. The lives of people are generally around the world are improving. I think if you look at the five continents, our position, our standing, our relationships have by and large improved in recent years, certainly reaching out to Asia, good relationship with the People's Republic of China, our relations with Japan and the Southeast Asian countries are on a strong footing, reaching out to the Indian subcontinents, developing a strategic relationship with India. I think that would -- a noteworthy development. In Europe, Western Europe in particular, the strengthening of NATO, the addition of members at the recent Bucharest Conference, the expansion of the role of NATO, the extension of its activities into areas like Afghanistan. I think that's been a noteworthy development. Africa, really good news story, one of the heartening aspects of my work has been as deputy secretary has been the opportunity to visit the continent, eight different countries of Africa. We have fantastic programs there: the Millennium Challenge Account, the PEPFAR, the program that deal with HIV/AIDS, very welcome there. If you want to feel good about the United States and its standing in the world, visit Africa.

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DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Well if the governor of Israel would choose to do that, for some reason, or if the Palestinian Authority, if Abu Mazen would choose to do that, I think we would respect that decision. But I don't think it's for us to decide.

MR. ROSE: I want to -- let me go back over all the things you just said, and sort of say what question would be risen -- would be raised about all of them. NATO expansion. The Russians aren't thrilled by that. Probably may, in some way, threaten a nuclear negotiations in putting antimissile architecture close to them and Europe, Latin America, you know. It's not just Venezuela. In other places, in Bolivia and other places, the left seems to be winning more elections than the center. If you look at China, China seems to be out there and with respect to Tibet and other areas, not very responsive to us or to anyone else. So if you look to Iran, I'm not sure what's changed about Iran. They seem to be, according to General Petraeus, more aggressive. So there seems to be a different side to most of these examples which look good.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: There usually is a different side, and testimony to the complexity of the world in which we live. But if I can take these sort of backwards, I mean you mentioned --

MR. ROSE: Russia. Take Russia, for example.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: You mentioned China, for example.

MR. ROSE: Okay.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: This is a vitally important relationship to the United States. This is a country whose economy is booming, 1.3 billion people. Huge financial reserves, major player, obviously, not only in the region, but starting I think, to play a role on the world scene and a country which we will have to reckon for the foreseeable future through this century and playing a very helpful and constructive role. If I can give one specific example, in the Six-Party Talks to denuclearize the Korean Peninsula --

MR. ROSE: Probably could not have done --

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Probably could not have been done without them, and I would say that I would put, in the good news story column. Now, are there issues with China? Well, yes. There is their military build-up, particularly the lack of transparency about their intentions. There is the continued issue of the Taiwan strength, and of course, there is the way they treat their own people, including the people of Tibet, which is a very current issue in our relationship with China.

MR. ROSE: So what are we doing to try to get them to take a different approach to Tibet?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Well first of all, what are you we trying to do to get them to take a different approach? Generally, let me see, we want them -- my predecessor, kind of used the phrase we want them to be responsible stakeholders. We don't want them just to be free riders in the international system. They just export whatever they want, collect the money, and then do as they please.

MR. ROSE: Do you know what the Chinese did when they heard that -- when they heard Bob say that? They said what does he mean by stakeholder?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Correct. And they puzzled over the term for quite a while, but now they use it themselves.

MR. ROSE: Right. And that's an appropriate way for them to consider their role in the world. You're a stakeholder --

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Exactly.

MR. ROSE: -- and you're part of the World Trade Organization and other organizations, and so they act like an adult.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: So that's an evolutionary process, if you will, of China kind of coming out of its shell, so to speak, and engaging more. First on an issue like the Korean peninsula, then perhaps, with respect to Iran where we've -- we have our differences, but we also have our points of view --

MR. ROSE: Do they help us in the Security Council at all?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Well, yes, they have. After all, they have, in the end, joined. It's always been a little bit of a tug of war, if you will, but in the end they have gone along with these unanimous Security Council resolutions that condemn Iran for its enrichment activities. Darfur, again a mixed picture Sudan, no question. Because they have more economic relations with Sudan than we're comfortable with. And we talk to them quite a bit about that. On the other hand --

MR. ROSE: Wait, stop. That's an interesting one, because you know what's going on. You talk to them quite a bit. Tell me what the conversation is about. What is the dialogue like with China when you raise questions about Darfur and their influence there, and their energy ties there, and their seeming agnostic view about internal politics there.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Right. And what they -- and we talk about our view, we explain it. I think their -- they have been rather reluctant to be interventionists, and they want to maintain the economic relationships they have. On the other hand, I think we've brought them around to the view, or we've reached a common view that security needs to be reestablished in the Sudan, because the security is the sine qua non. It's the one condition you've got to achieve before you're able to accomplish anything else, and there, not only have they gone along with us in advocacy and approval of an expanded peace keeping effort there, but they have sent, which is unusual for China, a peace keeping -- an engineer unit there, themselves, some 300 people that are involved in helping build encampments and facilities --

MR. ROSE: So when people protest about Darfur and the Chinese and want the world to boycott the Olympics, you say while they have not done everything that we want them to do, they have gotten better about Darfur?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I would say that. And cite the example I just mentioned about them sending engineers there. And I would also say that they have been quite good about conveying our point of view to their Sudanese interlocutors with whom they, I would say, probably have a better relationship than we do.

MR. ROSE: Characterize for me how you see what's happening on the ground in Darfur. Is it genocide? Is it getting less. Is it getting better? Not the politics, not whether China's trying to do something, but what is actually happening on the ground?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: There's some aspects of the situation in Darfur that, compared to the crisis levels of three or four years ago, may have improved somewhat, and particularly nutrition levels and life expectancy in some of the camps. But I would say that, that is principally due to the vast, the massive humanitarian assistance that has been given, mostly, I'm proud and pleased to say, by the United States of America. We have been the largest single donor of humanitarian assistance to the Darfur situation. But the number of displaced people continues to grow. It's somewhere around 300,000 people at the moment. And there is still widespread insecurity in the camps. And people are victimized by either some of these militia groups or by Sudanese government officials. So it continues to be a very grave situation. And this simply highlights the urgency of getting the full number of peacekeepers into Sudan. And there the government has been dragging its feet. There's supposed to be 26,000 peacekeepers in the country. And I think they've only got 8- or 9,000 at this time.

MR. ROSE: Where -- what are the Chinese doing to get the government to allow more?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Well they certainly, as I said, they're helping build the facilities for the incoming forces. And we are now working much -- we're -- very energetically with the Security Council, with Ban Ki-Moon, and I'm hopeful that there's going to be some progress on this score. There has been, but it's been -- it's just been painfully slow. It's been unacceptably slow. But we're keeping the pressure on.

MR. ROSE: What's the leverage? I mean, you know, you talk to a nation like China and you say, we recognize that you are clear a rising power. We look at your economy, look at the number of population, look at the changes in your country, look at how many people have risen out of poverty. We all recognize how many problems -- the kind of problems you have as we recognize how we do. But where does push come to shove on subjects like this? Or is it just talk? You just try to help them see the way things are?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Well I don't think there's any way that we can sort of push some magic button. There's no silver bullet. I do think, Charlie, it's not just talk. I think its real meaningful dialogue.

MR. ROSE: No. And I'm not minimizing that.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: No, no, no, I understand.

MR. ROSE: -- trying to understand.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: No, I understand what you're saying. But I think we have to try to move into each other's mental space here.

MR. ROSE: Right.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: And understand, try to understand where each of us are coming from. And over time, I believe that can do good.

MR. ROSE: And for those governments around the world who want to boycott the opening day ceremonies of the Olympics, you say?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: That I believe, first of all, we don't want to politicize the Olympics in that way. And, secondly, I think with respect to China, I think it could well be counterproductive, and wouldn't advance the very objectives that we're concerned about. For example, the issue of Tibet. We think it's really important that the Chinese open some kind of dialogue with Tibet. And we don't -- but we don't --

MR. ROSE: With the Dalai Lama?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Well the Dalai Lama or his representatives. Ultimately, I think it would be highly desirable if they met with the Dalai Lama.

MR. ROSE: And they don't do it out of some sense of fear or worrying about these -- instability or what?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Well, you know, this is a -- a long story. It's an issue that's gone on for -- for a long time. I think they've had as a Han, a government that is -- and a country that is predominantly Han Chinese, they have had difficulty, and particularly having come from an -- coming from an authoritarian political system, they've had difficulty recognizing the rights, the religious and cultural rights of people such as the Tibetans. There's been dialogue over the years about what would -- might constitute meaningful autonomy. But these are things that are going to have to be worked out between the Chinese government and the people who live in Tibet, and they're going to have to work this out on a basis that's respectful of the human rights of the people in Tibet.

MR. ROSE: Were they helpful on Burma?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: To a limited extent.

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MR. ROSE: But is that on your, you know, on your agenda as well, the environmental question around the world, because it comes up with governments, and every time I see there is a gathering of heads of state that seem to get around to talking about the environment, whether it's even G8.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: They do. And President Bush gave a really important speech in the Rose Garden the other day.

MR. ROSE: Right. Suggesting that he's listening to the people and their concerns.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: He certainly is. And knowing the President as I do, I can tell you, he's very concerned about it, and understands environmental and energy security issues, extremely well. And his main point, in addition to being willing to try and establish long term goal for carbon -- for the reduction of carbon emissions, his main point is that if the next round of the Kyoto protocol, the post 2012, the currently Kyoto Convention --

MR. ROSE: Right.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: -- expires in 2012. And we've got to come up -- the international community has got to come up with a new plan. And if we give a pass, again, to China and India, these major rapidly growing economies -- if we don't get them on, whatever measures we take are going to be totally canceled and overshadowed.

MR. ROSE: But our commitment to it should not be dependent on their commitment, should it? I mean we should be a leader in stepping forward on a new Kyoto-type agreement?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Well, certainly.

MR. ROSE: Not saying if they don't do it, we're not going to do it, if they don't have signatories, we're not going to be signatories --

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Well, I think we will probably, and if you look at legislation that is in our system, and if you look at what the political candidates are saying, I think you can count on us coming up with certain limitations in the months and years ahead. I don't think there is any doubt about that. The question is whether we also make them internationally legally binding, and I think to take that second step, I think we would insist that other countries, including these major emitting nations like China and India, do so as well. Because the studies will show you that if we don't, their increase in carbon emissions by the year 2050 is going to totally overshadow the savings or the reductions that have been carried out by Western Europe and current industrialized economics. It's a big problem.

MR. ROSE: And their attitude is two-fold. One, you have been doing this for much longer, you have been polluting much longer than we have. And secondly, they say the key to all the problems we have in terms of maintaining this growth rate that we're on, so somebody has got to convince them that they can have the growth rate as well as --

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: And that comes to point number three which is technology is going to be a major part of the answer, clean coal technology and others. And a lot of work is being done on that. It probably needs to be accelerated. And some of these countries have got to reduce the trade barriers to the import of some of these environmental technologies.

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MR. ROSE: Is that because of how many former Cubans are in Miami? Because there are political prisoners held by a thousand governments we deal with. Egypt, for example. Russia. They have political prisoners, do they not?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Yes, and --

MR. ROSE: China, especially China.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: And we pressure them.

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MR. ROSE: Do you see India as a wedge against China?

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I think, I see India as a large country, more than one billion people, which is democratic, and which the United States cannot afford to ignore. I see it growing, interactions between our two countries including a burgeoning Indian-American population here in the United States. So just like China, I see --

MR. ROSE: It would be more if there weren't some immigration politics.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Yeah. A huge, growing middle class in that country, a very strong science and technology base.

MR. ROSE: But do you say it's inevitable they'll be in conflict with China, or not? Not necessarily true? And that, in fact, they now have interest in trading policies, one is a more service economy, one's a more manufacturing economy.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: Right. No, I don't think conflict of that kind -- first of all, we live in the new --

MR. ROSE: Military conflict.

DEPUTY SECRETARY NEGROPONTE: I mean, competition, perhaps, yes. But both of them I think more and more are going to focus on developing their own internal economies, their own internal markets. At the moment, China's in a very much of a -- of an export mode. But sooner or later their own people are going to be demanding increases in their standard of living. And so I think that there's going to be room for everybody.

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